Okay, what's this about. Fill me in pls
- Locked due to inactivity on May 23, '21 3:54am
Thread Topic: Okay, what's this about. Fill me in pls
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Okay, I'll start off by giving you these quotes from the bible:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."
"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself."
"Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens."
"The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations."
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The Christian God is never changing. His word will always be his word, right? Something like that?? Thats kinda what those verses above say, and it's what a lot of people I knew growing up would tell me. Maybe they're loonies idk.
So, here's a question.
If the Christian god is never changing in his words and always consistent, why do some believers neglect the old testament and some of the more bizarre "sins" or passages?
There's a passage which tells you not to wear two different fabrics,
"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." Leviticus 19:19
One that says you shouldn't eat fat:
"It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood." Leviticus 3:17
If you are a lady, you should not speak in church:
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”
1 Corinthians 14:34
And more. I can't be bothered listing all of them but you can just look them up yourself if you're interested. There's stuff like ooo dont trim your beard! Periods are unclean so dont touch a woman on her period, not even her shoulder or YUCK!!!
So, why dont followers of the bible follow these guidelines? If your God is never changing and he always sticks to his word, that would mean, he still firmly believes these things are wrong, right??? And that would also mean that he still firmly believes that owning slaves, abusing your wives and other people and seeing women as inferior to men and basically objects are acceptable things to do. So, why do followers today, kinda just brush over those things?
And I'm like, not asking this to challenge your beliefs or anything, if you are Christian or follow the biblical god, whoopty whoo none of my concern. I'm not religious myself, nor am I interested in becoming religious. When I have questions I like to seek out opinions and answers so here I am. Religion is a pretty fascinating topic and maybe I'm completely misinterpreting everything written above, but heyyy,
that's why I'm asking and seeking answers or opinions.
So like, opinions??? Corrections??? Fill me in I'm curious !!!! 🤬😠 -
So one explanation iv heard is that all those rules weren't general rules for everyone. They were only for the people of israel. I don't remember where I heard that and I have no idea if it's right tho lol
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Most of the laws from the Old Testament were in someway looking forward to Christ. Well, once he came and fulfilled those laws that looked forward to him, why do we have to do them?
So basically the only laws we have to follow are the ones that Jesus says to, which are all contained in the New Testament. -
Hebrews 10:1 " The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."
Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." -
Now I'd like to see some bizarre New Testament laws
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Hmm interesting, thanks for your input both of u. P interesting to hear
As for new testament laws and such..
"For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."
1 Corinthians 11:6
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head."
1 Cornithians 11:4
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
1 Timothy 2:12
"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;"
Ephesians 6:5
5-9 is all about slaves/masters
"Slaves, obey those who are your human masters in everything, not with eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord."
Colossians 3:22
"Urge slaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be pleasing, not argumentative,"
Titus 2:9
These are all new testament if I'm thinking correctly. Supporting slavery and treatment of women as less than man, or as something which should be seen, not heard. So if it's new testament, does that mean you should follow and support these scriptures and that the Christian god is also in support of these ideas? Or ??? -
I'm not sure about the hair cutting covering your head thing, I've never heard of that.
For the women being silent in church and not teaching in church, we don't skip over that command. There are no female pastors, and the few churches that do have them are not going in accordance with the Bible.
God did appoint the male as the head of the household. But I can honestly say that I have never heard my dad or any man in any other Christian household say, 'This is what we're doing because I say so and I'm the head of the house and you're all subject to me so I don't care what you think on the matter.'
So for slavery, this is kind of just with the times. People had slaves back then. Slaves, do what your master says to the best of your ability, and masters, don't mistreat your slaves. I'm sure it also applies to servants, and such.
Also, I'm kind of just speculating on this, so don't hold fast to what I say, or anything. -
i mean, God has enough authority to tell ppl to stop having slaves if he thinks it's wrong
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If I'm remembering correctly, in the passage which spoke of women not speaking in church, it also said that women should wait to ask their questions to their husbands once they got home. So, wouldn't that also apply to women who are not pastors and just regular churchgoers???
Also what about the Timothy one about how Women should not teach or have authority over a man for he is the greater of the two? Does that only apply to pastors then or are women supposed to not have any role in which they have authority over a man, or are in a position to teach?
Heres more of what I'm referring to here:
1 Timothy 2:11-15
English Standard Version
11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control
And the slavery part...
a lot of followers of this god say that he is never changing/doesn't change his mind on things. He is eternal and unchangeable . His word will always be his word etc etc
So even if slavery is no longer acceptable in a modern society, wouldn't he still think it's acceptable? Would he be in support if people tried to do such a thing again?
I wouldn't think he'd go against his word one day and decide that it's wrong, would he?? That would mean he isn't unchangeable and that his word isn't always his word, right? Or am I misunderstanding what people and scriptures mean when they say these things -
Wow, you have a lot of deep questions, and I think it's very thoughtful of you to want to pursue answers. To be honest, I'm not sure if I have all the answers, but I know the Bible does, (and I will definitely be looking into this) but for now I will try to reply as best I can.
You are absolutely right that the character of God never changes. He is who he says he is, now and forever. We also know that his Word is trustworthy and true...so like you said, why does it seem like people are ignoring parts of it or that some things seem irrelevant in modern times?
As Dragonsfire and Faceless Knight mentioned before, a lot of the Old Testament laws were directed specifically to the Jewish people as a way of setting them apart and to point to the coming of Christ.
I don't really know why some of the laws were so strange, but I do know that in the New Testament Paul talks about not forcing non-Jews to conform to Jewish customs even though they are believers, because really that's not what the law was all about. The real point of the law was not so people could follow every commandment and be seen as perfect people before God, but to show that no one is perfect, no one can purify themselves through human means, and that we are all born sinners -- not because we wear certain clothes or because we eat "unclean" foods, but because we lie, covet, steal, and put other things above God.
This is what most of the OT laws symbolized--most laws were about how to be accepted by God and have their sins forgiven by presenting a pure sacrifice--and when Jesus lived and died and rose again he fulfilled the law by providing a sacrifice to reconcile and purify humans before God if they choose to accept it.
(If this feels all over the place, feel free to point it out/ask about it, cuz I'd be happy to clarify) -
As for the slavery thing, I think there are two parts to what we know about God's view on it from what we read in the Bible.
The first is that, like Dragonsfire said, slavery played a large part in society back then, especially in Roman times, however it was generally not the same kind of slavery that we think of today. Back then, (you can fact check this, since I only briefly searched it/remember things from history class) people weren't slaves specifically because of race. Often people became slaves because they were in debt, conquered, born into it, broke the law, or were so poor being a slave that was fed and cared for was a preferable option. Also, slave could be any position from shoveling cow dung to being second in command to the master's household. I'm not saying slavery is/was a good thing, and neither does the Bible, but it was an undeniable part of society back then, and the Bible instructed people to behave in a way that pleases God no matter what your circumstance.
The second part is more relevant to the more common idea of slavery such as enslaving people based on origin or the color of their skin. This is done because the people being enslaved are seen as inferior and as less than humans. This absolutely goes against everything the Bible teaches. The Bible says that all people are created in his image, giving all humans inherent worth. The Bible also says that we are all equally sinful, and no one is better than anyone else. Even more than that, the Bible says God loves the entire world, and when Jesus died on the cross he died so that anyone who would believe in him could be saved, his sacrifice proving that each and every person is inherently precious and valuable to him. -
As far as women's role in church and whether they are inferior to men, I think there are two parts to this question as well. Personally, as a girl, this is something I have wondered about too, especially when reading those verses.
Most importantly when we look at puzzling parts of the Bible, it's important to keep in mind the character of God and the things that are stated very clearly.
Here's what I do know: God is loving, just, and created both men and women in his image, making both equally, inherently valuable. Women are worth just as much to God as men are, and throughout the Bible, women play important roles and are treated with respect that would be quite unusual for the time period it takes place in.
However, while women have the same intrinsic worth as men do, they were created with different strengths and do have different roles, especially when it comes to authority which seems to be the result of the Fall/ when Adam and Eve sinned.
When they disobeyed God everything that God had made good and perfect was now broken including the ideal complementary unity between men and women, specifically in marriage. One of the consequences was that there would be conflict between the two, and women would want to rule over man, but man would have the role of "ruling" over the women, which would interfere with the harmony they once shared.
However, the Bible addresses this conflict in the New Testament by saying how husbands and wives should treat each other, for example in Ephesians 5 when it tells wives to respect and submit to their husbands (not because their husbands are "better" than them, or because the woman is "inferior" but because the man has the role of leader and by willingly submitting to him, the wife is resisting the conflict of wanting control which exists because of sin, leading to harmony) HOWever, the Bible does not say men are allowed to just rule over their wives and treat them however they want, instead they are supposed to love their wives unconditionally and sacrificially, in the same way the Christ loves us.
And in 1 Peter 3:7 it clearly says that men and women are spiritually equal since they (if they are believers) are also heirs of the promise of eternal life.
Now when it comes to the church specifically, it does say that women should not assume authority over men, they aren't supposed to teach in church, and it does say that they should "keep silence". However when looking at the context, it doesn't mean that women should never speak in church at all. In that chapter (1 Corinthians 14) Paul was addressing the need for order in the church, as it seems people were all talking over each other in tongues and no one was really getting anything out of the meetings because no one could understand what was being said. So for things to go more smoothly and actually benefit those listening Paul gave instructions to
1: (vs 27-28) Those speaking in tongues to take turns and only if there was someone to interpret it and should be quiet while someone else is speaking
2: (vs 29-31) Those prophesying should also take turns, allow others to speak, and to be silent while someone else is prophesying
3: (vs 34) Women should be silent (not because they are less valuable but) to show proper submission (as it is not their responsibility to preach but the mens' and to do so would be to take a position of authority over them).
The verse you brought up about women's head coverings was talking about when they pray and/or prophesies presumably in the church, which Paul did not condemn them for doing, he just explained how to do so in an acceptable manner, that doesn't prevent them from speaking but does so in a way that honors the men's role in authority. As for the head covering "rules" themselves, it would seem that the head coverings weren't exactly the important aspect, but was, at the time, more like a symbol or outward way to demonstrate that they were living according to their intended roles.
(I know this has been kind of all over the place, but to sum things up) Men and women are equally valuable to God, and one is not worth less than the other. However they do have different roles, especially in the church, and while women are supposed to honor men's role of spiritual leadership, this does not mean they are forbidden from taking part in ministering to others, sharing the gospel, or speaking in church (just not preaching).
This is one of the unique things about Christianity, especially for that time period, that all people are equally valuable, equally sinful, equally loved, and have equal opportunity to accept God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
As Galatians 3:28 says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." <3 -
I really appreciate the time you took out of your day to respond to me, all your responses were very interesting and educated me a bit honestly so I appreciate it thank you. Always interesting to learn new things.
If the old testament is outdated and the new testament has some things and rules that only applies to people of those times, why hasn't the biblical god then you know, decided to update the bible? Is there still no need to despite his people living in very different times now? If he hasn't updated it, does that mean he still stands by what is said in the bible and how people lived back then? Some of the stuff just kind of feels like, totally irrelevant to a modern society . Like the slavery part. It was a part of society back then, but now its obviously condemned and for good reason, so why not get somebody to write more scriptures for him that applies to the current world? He had disciples and people in the past to write for him , so why not now? Does it have something to do with when Jesus returns again? Or what??
Theres also something I'm confused about with that part about women and men being equal in Gods eyes. It doesn't, at least to me, feel like they are equal if God has given men the role of being the leaders while women have the role of being the more submissive kind. To me at least, I would consider equality to not just be that he loves both men and women, and that they have their own strengths, but that they have equal standing in all that they do and they are equal in all their strengths, both authority and care taking, as well as everything else. It feels also unfair to me that women are given such a different punishment compared to men, because of what one women did. Because of what Eve did.
From my understanding, even things like periods and pregnancy being painful and women having the role of being child bearers and caregivers was a direct result of Eves sin (and you can correct me if I'm wrong here or anywhere else).
Adam took the fruit as well though, so if men and women are equal, and sin is equal, why did women receive what appears to me to be, a greater punishment than men did? And why were men given more of a role in society and authority/leadership than women were?
Sorry if what I said is confusing or if I'm rambling btw lol -
I'm going to answer the first part because I have a feeling that Dulcinea will be able to answer the second part much better than me :)
The Old Testament points forward to Christ and the New Testament points back to Christ. How would we be able to see how Jesus fulfilled all the prophesies and laws without the Old Testament?
And you have to keep in mind that many of the books in the New Testament are letters (1 and 2 Corinthians to Corinthia, Galatians to Galatia, there were also some sent to other specific people, you get the picture). Some contained words of encouragement, others showed people where they were in the wrong.
Now, whether some things aren't relevant to modern society or not doesn't mean we can't apply it in other aspects in our life. For example, the slavery thing, Just because it has the word slavery in it doesn't mean we can't apply it to other situations.
Another thing to think about is that the Bible isn't a book of rules we have to follow. It's the good news about Jesus. You don't have to follow these rules and regulations to get to heaven, all you need is faith that Jesus died and rose again to pay for your sins. And that faith shows itself in how we act. -
I'm going to agree with dragonsfire. There is actually a lot to learn about God's character and provision in the Old Testament. While we are not under the old laws anymore because Jesus fulfilled the law and became the new covenant, we can still find meaning in why God enacted those laws in the first place. Especially with the ten commandments.
From a personal level, I'm currently going through the first few books in the Bible. And am in Deuteronomy right now. And what I've learned this year is how God's character has remained the same throughout the years. And I can see how he cares for women just as much as men. I think of how the Israelites are his people that are constantly doubting him and falling into sin despite the fact that God rescued them out of Egypt, and I think of how that's a perfect example of people's lives today. Even though the Israelites mess up literally all the time (like that golden calf incident ahaha), God shows his grace and mercy and he does keep his promises by eventually leading them into the promise land. He feeds them manna daily. He communicates with them on a personal level. He deals with their complaining. He makes rules to protect those who are treated unfairly. He makes rules to address their culture. He sets up order and leaders. He eventually shaped them into a society.
So it's examples like this that can be helpful for today. The Old Testament is not irrelevant. It's not used in the same way, but it's still useful.
About the passage about women... It's best understood when reading the context of each passage. Women are charged with being submissive, yes, but men also have responsibilities. You can't take one verse out without understanding context, and this goes for the entire Bible in every section.
When reading the Bible, you have to be aware of a few things. One is context. Another is culture. And another is the literal vs metaphoric interpretation. You also have to discern whether the Bible is endorsing something or simply explaining or addressing a preexisting situation. Slavery is one of those topics. The Bible does not say yay slavery I'm all for that. Slavery existed as part of the culture, and as Dulcinea said, slavery back then often took the form of bondservant. An example of this is when Jacob wanted to marry Rachel. He ended up working for her father to pay off the debt to marry her. He accidentally married Leah the older sister, so he worked for like another 7 years to finally marry Rachel.
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