God had actually done many awful things.
- Locked due to inactivity on Dec 14, '23 3:54am
Thread Topic: God had actually done many awful things.
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If Christianity's version of God is real, they are an evil being. God is portrayed as totally omniscient- they know everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, and has total power over everything.
God has seen all of the suffering in the world before it happened, and did nothing to stop it. If the world is made exactly as God intended, they knew innocent people would suffer but chose to continue anyway.
If God knows everything that will ever happen, how can anyone really have free will? Everything is predetermined. God knew Adam and Eve would betray them. God knew when you would wake up this morning and what you would have for breakfast.
Do we really have free will if we will be punished for not worshipping God? We are forced to believe in the Christian God in fear of spending eternity in hell. We are taught to love God because God loves us, but if the punishment for not loving God is eternal damnation, is it really love? Fear is not love. -
not to mention all the people god killed!
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Suffering and free will come hand in hand. We were given the choice to do what we want and so are bad people. If no one ever suffered, we would not truly have free will and that would mean that we are controlled. And although this may sound incredibly annoying, good can come from suffering. Suffering reminds us of what really matters and wakes us up from apathy, suffering brings all kinds of people together despite their differences, it is the one thing that connects all humanity.
And when our world was free from sin, there was no suffering. However humankind made the choice to disobey him and our sin corrupted the original way the world was. You may say "well that's unfair that we're judged by the actions of our ancestors" and yeah it would be, if that was the sole reason for judgement. The Bible specifically states that children are not meant to be judged for the actions of their predecessors.
"The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."
But that's not the case as we are born sinful creatures and we choose to sin or not sin. God doesn't just go "raagh you made a mistake so go to hell". We are going to make mistakes because we are human. But we should still take accountability for our actions and the consequences they may have. -
If God knows everything that will ever happen, how can anyone really have free will? Everything is predetermined. God knew Adam and Eve would betray them. God knew when you would wake up this morning and what you would have for breakfast.
?? This confuses me to be honest. Just because God knows what we will do doesn't mean He controls our actions. We have the freedom to choose whatever we want, God is simply aware of the choices we will end up making.
Do we really have free will if we will be punished for not worshipping God? We are forced to believe in the Christian God in fear of spending eternity in hell. We are taught to love God because God loves us, but if the punishment for not loving God is eternal damnation, is it really love? Fear is not love.
Yes, we do. You're practicing your free will right now by not believing Him. God is not some prideful monster who forces His subjects to cower and kneel. He offers a place in His house if we so choose to take it, to a place where all things are good and perfect. If this twisted world was all there is, then yes, God would be cruel. But it isn't. We can choose Him and be with Him. I do not have to love God, but I choose to because He loved me first.
I doubt that people who have lived good lives but don't believe in God will be in torment for all eternity. But I do believe that being without Him and never entering His perfect household is already a harsh punishment in itself, though that's my interpretation so please take it with a grain of salt -
Woopsie forgot to enclose your statements in quotes
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Oh wait nvm it just didn't load, ignore my previous statement
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I struggle to understand the framework of "original sin" because how can something understand the consequences of the meaning of wrongdoing without the knowledge of good and evil? We "disobeyed" god before we could even understand what that meant.
I also struggle with it because if God is good then it is God's responsibility to ensure that all humans have as much of a chance to be saved as possible, but while Christians claim God's word is written on everyone's heart, that is an unfalsifiable claims and does not match what we can observe in reality.
Claiming someone born in a country with limited access to Christian judeo beliefs and someone born in America had the same access to salvation is just not accurate. I also truly believe that if God's word were real he would have a moral responsibility to reveal himself to everyone without a shadow of a doubt. While Christians claim that is the case, I just don't see that to be my observation. -
Hi christians need to respond to that. The Christian justification for of it is based on faith claim. Besides, were it so simple to disprove Christianity we most likely would not even be here to begin. Christianity is an internally justified belief system so there's always a "reason" for everything
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No christians need to respond
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Coming back because I wanted to appreciate spice for a second. You are so kind and thoughtful and an excellent example for the Christian community. I appreciate how you defend your beliefs while being respectful and I also appreciate that you are open to nuance in the discussion. A lot of people are pushed away from religion because of the bigotry but I have nothing but respect for you, Spice.
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I struggle to understand the framework of "original sin" because how can something understand the consequences of the meaning of wrongdoing without the knowledge of good and evil? We "disobeyed" god before we could even understand what that meant.
That's a great question! I see it as this way. When a parent makes a rule for a child, does the child understand why the rule exists? Probably not. They aren't able to comprehend yet why the thing they are not allowed to do may be good or bad, but they are supposed to listen to the parent.
Adam and Eve may have not fully understood good and evil, but they knew God had told them not to eat the fruit but they disobeyed anyway. Just because they didn't know good and evil does not necessarily mean they didn't know right from wrong.
When Eve talks to the snake, it is clear that she is aware of the rule God has made and what she is/isn't allowed to do, but she chooses to disobey anyways.
I also struggle with it because if God is good then it is God's responsibility to ensure that all humans have as much of a chance to be saved as possible, but while Christians claim God's word is written on everyone's heart, that is an unfalsifiable claims and does not match what we can observe in reality.
I believe we were all born with a God sized hole in our hearts. That's why we have so many religions and spiritual practices, because humans as a whole all seem to seek something that will fill that missing part of ourselves. When we come to the big questions like "how was the universe made" we all seek for answers.
We are also all born with a sort of moral code. Even though we are naturally born selfish until taught otherwise, we all have a hidden set of "rules" in our hearts. I'm sure you've heard kids say often "that's not fair!" or "i did this for you, so you have to do something for me!"
All cultures and people share this mindset, even though they may differ on different rules. But no culture ever praises cowardice or treachery. We were given this moral code and longing for religion by the creator. I think that's what it means when Christians say "God's word is written on our hearts"
Claiming someone born in a country with limited access to Christian judeo beliefs and someone born in America had the same access to salvation is just not accurate. I also truly believe that if God's word were real he would have a moral responsibility to reveal himself to everyone without a shadow of a doubt. While Christians claim that is the case, I just don't see that to be my observation.
I totally get where you're coming from. However, if God announced Himself to all of humanity, not only would there be chaos but there would be no love. Everyone would believe God because they have no other choice. He doesn't reveal Himself totally, without a shadow of a doubt, because He wants us to trust Him. He gave His only begotten son so that we could be right with Him. He extends His hand to us but we have to make that step of faith. Otherwise it'd just be a one-sided relationship.
And your first words is why I believe missionary work is so important. All people deserve the right to seek God and as Christians, its our duty to bring this Gospel around the world. He assigned that mission to us, to reach out to our fellow man and tell them the good news.
I will admit, this part confuses me a bit too. But hopefully through more study and research, I hope to find the truth about all these matters! I'm still rather young and not fully spiritually mature, so there could be a chance I'm getting things wrong. These are just my personal beliefs and convictions, hope this helps! (And also sorry that it's super super long LOL I just get really passionate about this) -
Hi christians need to respond to that. The Christian justification for of it is based on faith claim. Besides, were it so simple to disprove Christianity we most likely would not even be here to begin. Christianity is an internally justified belief system so there's always a "reason" for everything
I will confess that I don't entirely understand what this means, but yes, there is some faith and trust required when building a relationship with God. However, I also believe that common sense and thinking can be applied and compatible with that. I believe in God because I think the evidence of our creation and being points to Him.
Also, Christianity is quite different from other religions and I think that is incredibly important. If we were able to understand everything completely, it would be pointless. God is a being with more intelligence and knowledge than we can comprehend, so it's natural and expected that we don't know absolutely everything.
Jesus also teaches kindness and humility instead of the common "you hurt me, I hurt you" mentality that is so common in today's world. And most religions usually say that "oh if you're good then you go to heaven no matter what religion", but if that's true, then it doesn't matter. Believing in God would be pointless and Christianity teaches otherwise.
The fact that it's challenging instead of easy to swallow is further evidence to me that the Bible does not come from man, but from a higher power. -
Coming back because I wanted to appreciate spice for a second. You are so kind and thoughtful and an excellent example for the Christian community. I appreciate how you defend your beliefs while being respectful and I also appreciate that you are open to nuance in the discussion. A lot of people are pushed away from religion because of the bigotry but I have nothing but respect for you, Spice.
MJSKKSJSM thank you so much, I appreciate that more than you know. I think some "Christians" just use religion as an excuse to be hateful towards others, which is not what Jesus teaches. Even if we don't agree with someone, we are called to treat them with respect. Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, even if He didn't support their actions, He respected them as human beings. We turn others away from God when we're hateful and snippish, so I try my best to keep an open mind and a compassionate heart about all topics. -
@ SprinkledSpice: You're an amazing person. That's it.
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@duelist - So are you! :D
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